Deescalation: The Peaceful Police Process

Carolina Focus
Friday, July 20th
Officer Mike Macario, Raleigh PD, teaches deescalation techniques to deal with interactions with people suffering TBI and other mental issues to reach peaceful outcomes. Robin Lattimore, author, Southern Splendor: Saving Architectural Treasues of the Old South

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

I'm mark Thomas this is Carolina focus on the news talk 11109937. DT 179 going. 10256 than them captaincy. Where we look at the issues events that happen for the for Carolina's Charlotte region and you. Welcome. Thanks for joining us here in Carolina focus this morning and something came to my attention that recently. About traumatic brain injury and how it affects individuals and particularly. People who have this issue and their interactions with police and emergency situations. And joining us now from the Raleigh police department is is it officer sergeant. Mike my carrier that was with us good morning sir it is. Just an officer Justin officer okay well we'll make Q how about lieutenant commander. Is that that's perfect but if it with vinegar. Officer Mike material and you've been you've been doing training now. With. Various. With the with Raleigh police department training new recruits for how long is it him. Been officially assigned here to the training center for almost nine years now. So you've got almost a decade of of experience in training people what's. What brought to your attention because I saw a lengthy video. Training video that you are. Featured in about traumatic brain injury what brought this to your attention. A couple that you started down this path this is a little bit different. It is. I've been involved live from the crisis intervention team training which is really an an international effort. But it's really been here in North Carolina and about 2005. And it is day 840 hour training which is pretty long for law enforcement officer training that. Really focuses on helping officers navigate interactions with people. Who suffer from mental illness or other developmental or intellectual disabilities. Traumatic brain injury being obviously aids in that category of of that. And it really yet. Brings to light just how old. Often. Officers to deal with people who have these situations. And really prior to the crisis intervention team training how little we really know. And that probably the best part of it is that it really is eighteen training so. We partner with the professional in the mental health community. People who themselves suffer from mental illness and and and various forms and disability. TP. Community advocates who works so hard on their behalf. Of people who staff the hospitals. That we we will take them to. And even then call takers from our 911 center so they can recognize on the front end. That there's a behavioral issue happening on a call and then name could dispatch a an officer who is trained. Maybe at a higher level and I believe I was in the second class that we county ever offered. And vote because of of having a a family history. Folks went mental illness and I have a daughter that has Down syndrome. It was just an instant attraction to me and and I just started hanging around them and basically. For the last. You know thirteen years they just can't get rid of me. Well I think and we I guess we share something in that respect them as well. Because I have a failing remember cousin of mine who has suffered from schizophrenia. Since his teenage years. And has been in and out of jail. In various sub mental institutions he's been institutionalized. And over the years his his mother my hand. Got into. You know seeking out trying to get officers to understand that. You know. He's. He's really not. In his right mind and lack of better deterrent and and he's yet he he may be doing something bad. But it's not because he's he's mean and aggressive and violent as such it's just that. He he's not thinking right is his brain doesn't function normally. And that she worked for decades. You in in trying to work with various police agencies to make officers aware of it you know just because somebody is is giving you a hard time. Doesn't mean. That's what they wanna do. Yes and probably one of the he'd. Biggest focuses of of the training for officers because the police are in the business of responsibility. Holding people accountable for the actions that they take. And so we challenge them. Literally from the first hour of this training. Because some blue we will get Riley is really well I think the only police academy at the moment in this state that. A train their officers in the full crisis intervention team training including. That video that you saw on traumatic brain injury. Before they hit the streets as a as a an officer the first time. But many agencies will send people who have been out on patrol 1012 years who have already kind of formed an idea. About their interaction with these folks we try to challenge them win. Just just the possibility. That this person is not responsible. For the behaviors that have brought to. It into contact with them and that. Treatment as an alternative to incarceration. We need to at least. I considered that because on our badges says to serve and protect in this really. And need. Represents one of the highest levels of service that we can do for an individual and her family. And by being able to recognize. The symptoms and and and how mental illness manifest itself. And then work on the most creative problem solving solution we can get kids to helping this person and their family. Find a better path toward wellness. And we're talking with officer. Mike McCann area from the Raleigh police department he's a trains in the crisis that team. In dealing with people with mental and physical brain injuries. In in. In in particular cases you know any interaction with the police. You know you you talk about a crisis intervention yet is somebody's having a bad day and get pulled over for speeding ticket all of a sudden. There crisis level has gone up and I think a lot of times a lot of times. When we cease situations. It's not that you know together we're having a bad day to begin with well when those blue lights came on I didn't get you better. You know there are so high. And then it hit it really is our job is in in essence what rule you have to think it yourself what would it take to occur in your household. To call 911 and how. Outside sources intervene in whatever's happening there so our whole job really is crisis intervention. The crisis could be written manufactured through relationships that happen within home. It could be as something that is the effect of a mental illness a traumatic brain injury. An acquired brain injury. Egypt and maybe just chronic mental health problems that we just have to be prepared for pro. And I think this is you know we we talk about the traumatic brain injury in the acquired brain injury. The UNC football coach. Larry Fedora was doing an interview this week about football and the traumatic brain injury. Aspect came up and of course he was rather defensive thinking that you know football is getting the majority of the blame unjustly. And maybe he's right. But I mean this is this is what we're seeing in a lot of young people whether they're playing soccer or there due to a boxing MMA you know what all what have you. These sorts of things. May be more prevalent. For a variety of reasons in younger people is that not correct. And it and that's I think a lot of that how. Have to do with the activities they participate in and and probably just our lack of understanding of this. Of the potential problems associated with even just one moment of of play a trauma to the brain. And you know in the past it was kind of shake it off to an end and just keep going. And researchers. In this field are really just uncovering. Not only that the potential delay from the one injury happened to the behavioral problems that could manifest themselves. But just. How little actually could. Occur and create a problem for a person and then family members or they just the especially in this younger population. Changes in and personality. Maybe some some very extreme changes in behavior. And they are trying to understand what we know what what is the cause of this. So old. Ill from our perspective in law enforcement we are constantly have to do more and more things. And in this case almost be person. And who represented that the mental health community. Obviously our interaction time with him is going to be beat relatively short. But I will tell you that today's young officer young professional law enforcement officer once as much training and information as they can get. On these issues so they can do this job better. And as far as. The interactions go. Correct me if I'm wrong more often than not. People under thirty tend to have more interactions with law enforcement then do people over thirty let's say the pull that as an arbitrary number. Yeah I would say that that's probably pretty accurate statement here. Yeah and in it and then you have to look at their physical ability is being at the the potential. Four of any situation to to rise to a physical level to you know that's possible violent encounter. And we know statistically. That people who suffer from mental illness. Across the board are far less likely to be violent in the general population but the problem is. When that filter is gone and you really are not in control of of your actions. When that violence does the current generally occurs at a very high level silly it creates a very very difficult. Added situation for first responders that become one thing. And I think you also mentioned and as part of the video of the you know brain development. Not being. Complete in its estimated until someone's in the mid twenties. So you combine you know let's say the high school football player or you know college football players been taken a lot of hits and all of a sudden. There's still not developed they could have more problems I'm thinking of a specific case here in Charlotte. Where there was a football player who had an encounter with police it was late at night he was knocking on doors seeking help. And when the police arrived he ran toward them. And they were yelling commands at him to to stop and so forth. And quite frankly when I watch the video and heard that I couldn't really understand what they were saying. And wish you knew what they were saying. So here's a C two and of course he ended up being shot. In killed. It's I guess it's this kind of situation. Where it where. If someone you know he might be a classic example someone who was in that situation. Yeah absolutely. MI of my reading of that situation. As best I ever call. That he he clearly was. Manifesting symptoms on that scene that would be consistent with somebody who had had had. Possibly a brain injury prior to that. And what we know is that that behavior doesn't just occur all the time he can be set off spike. Different a crisis moment to kids speed set up. By eighties different sensitivity to two things that occur around them much like posttraumatic stress disorder. There could be long period of time and then that smell or a sight or sound or an interaction can just get debt. That bring that moment forward the the problem for law enforcement out there is an and that is always the training. If you press is. We want to resolve every situation as peacefully as as we possibly can. But when you think of that situation and what the officers were they split. By all accounts the information that they had received is that it you know this potentially a person who has breaking into a home. This was that late at night it was dark they have. It heightened sense when the outcome of this security issue when they get in there. And now they see this person just just rushing toward them and in in this case fairly physically. Large person to whom Coogan seem very threatening and they have just moments to make that decision. Yeah and as there is it is there a solution to this. And I know you on the spot oh yeah it I mean this is amicus to me this this would almost seem to be like I say kind of a classic example. Of what you're trying to train for. Absolutely and to me everything in the training issues sell. Whether it's its officers that get injured or killed in the line of duty or. Situations in which doctors have to employ force. And when we look at it in and it's hole and wonder is was there anything else that we could have done did we approach this well. That we are trying through a combination of things like the partnership with the brain injury association of North Carolina. Com went all the other middle held. Organizations that we collaborate win. They have studied for example the escalation skills. As is just part of their career. And those things we're not necessarily shared with. Because we didn't have a partnership and M when I started to be involved in the training I thought about what it would have just been absolutely natural partnership for us to have. So between those things we have seen. Hey a definite increase in the training indeed techniques used in the earlier recognition of these problems. Now that doesn't mean that every situation is gonna go well but I will tell you. For every one of those type cases that we have we have hundreds and hundreds of successful the escalation that occur every day. From really a very serious critical nature I myself have. Come up on people. In possession of the gun. Preparing to kill themselves or with a knife in their hand against the road and then the was able to through this training and and the things that I had learned. Be able to begin a process that the escalation that ended successfully in giving that person treatments. I just unfortunate we don't hear about those cases as often as we do about the ones that go go pretty bad for. Well and I think there you know you're you're kind of heading in a direction that the you know was kind of in the back of my mind to begin with. And you know we hear people throw around the term very casually suicide by cop. And it would seem that if if that's the case then these people aren't mentally stable. And if there's not there is there should be a way to not necessarily provide them that service how does that does that sound like. How does that. And that it it has become and then thankfully it's not terribly prevalent but. Well first responders live in the world a possible we are always considering the possibility and it does happen and not across the first responder community. That for example it is now a section in the mental illness training that all basic law enforcement. Recruit gets so that they understand. Yet. Up to know there's a possibility at some point in your life. And in your career the law enforcement not certain that somebody will attempt to use you as a means to take their own life and strangely enough I. Had a case. That happened to me. I do not. Fire my weapon. That the individuals father was actually able to intervened and it's an after a struggle we were able to get him on the control. But it is very purpose in creating the scene in his home was to bring an officer there. That would and then he would attack. Act that officer. And then ops are what would be forced to kill him. And it it just really you have to imagine what what what level would have persons. It consciousness and mental abilities have gotten to. To reach that point in their life. Now and yes he has to decide is it. And I almost all the this state out there will tell you it is not about ending life it's about ending the suffering in the pain that people are. Are. Dealing with on a daily basis. But it still takes a lot. Of just personal commitment to be able to do that. And this is just become one of those those mechanisms to do that that that first responders have now come to realize that the possibility. Well and I and I think it also. That training you're trying to do is trying to address that because. It's to me it's speaks to the training that officers have been given over the years. That if people think that all got it was called 911 in May casino get killed. That's certainly goes to the training of the people who are responding. Absolutely. So now that we recognize that. And art call takers are are being trained to give it as much. Real time information prior to the scene technology helps us understand if we may be dealt with a person before. And we can. It at least the some information that may be there's the mental instability in the situation. And then just. The better tactics the better training to better awareness that that officers get across the board. Hopefully is going to get at the head of the situation. Because. I I know personally several officers who have been involved in shootings. And what most people don't think about. Is the effect that it does have on the officer because they're gonna think about that moment their entire life it's going to change everything for them we don't get in this business to take a person's life not even hopefully to be put in the situation. Where that would happen we want to help preserve life and help people live more safely and and and have applied the laws. But it just is a reality of of police work. And we're talking we're officer Mike McCarron Rio from Raleigh police department and not training academy training the crisis team in. Techniques of the escalation. When dealing with people who have personality disorders let's say metal issues traumatic brain injury. These are all things that. Go into. What you're trying to do to help officers and the public at large. Be safer and come out of these things. In a much better situation than. Has been the case. In throughout history I guess. And I'd. One of the other big big changes by the way is. In our overall approach to rule almost every interaction we have with people because. They need the typical or let's say traditional model of policing has really been commanding control. Our uniform presence we command. Now we do it very faster and valuation of whatever this scene is and then we basically start directing people what to do. That here in the really yet and that most of the academy that you have across the United States that really worked toward. Church trying to innovate their training we have. Are using techniques of the escalation in the right from the beginning how much information can we get about what's happening here can we start. The report building with all the parties involved as quickly as possible identify the potential. Person that that is in crisis. And then I have a a primary officer attempt to establish reporter at a very high level. And try to uncover the problem. Maybe positioned ourselves tactically we're weekend established. A conversation even if that person could potentially become violent at some point. And so these everything from our movement and how. Tactics to the way that we opened up with more of a universal and professional and personal greeting to people. And it is is has been different in just the last fifteen years at that. I've been involved in history. And I guess you know when you when you put it like that. It it reminds me of certain situations that we've seen. And this is kind of an extreme but when we're talking about terror suspects for example. You know the FBI would talk to a terror suspect in some cigarettes assembly report get a lot of information where as. Others think that what's water board the sky and see we what we can get out. In tears flowed to use that as an extreme and I'm not saying that you know the police or water while oracle but. I mean it's that's you get. You get more flies with honey than you do vinegar. I mother once told he'd long Larry. And and I think most investigators who would agree with you that to really uncover. Is the truth investigative work it really does require a long. And the process of of just getting the person to open up and and generally by threats or things of that sort. And not only. Constitutionally is that we can we can't do anything like that it's just simply not going to work out for police and then if you take any of the criminal element out of it. And now you're dealing with a person. Who the reason that you were in contact with them is because they are suffering from from a mental illness and that does. Basic law enforcement training curriculum for mental illness. Has been rewritten to flight I've been fortunate enough today and it being involved in the two major rewrite that have occurred over the last eight years. And it is gone from an eight hour block in the police academy to 24 hour block which is fairly substantial. Including scenarios in scenario based training. And the very first. Bullet point of the training is that mental illness is an illness. Folks who have. Have a traumatic brain injury the week we need to look at them the same way we would look at a person that was possibly suffering a cardiac incident. Or are or diabetic incident that. That is something that is happening week in and that is creating this outward behavior so when we approached them. We really need to approach them more in the line of our main goal. Somebody told that use the term once and mental health paramedics somebody who is evaluating unseen. And not just barking orders at them and expecting them to be able to comply. When and like a family member that you spoke about. They could be hearing voices and their head they could be suffering extreme internal pain. And that they may not even recognize our role as a police officer there they may not even be able to physically. In engagement. Until we break through that threshold. And that requires a lot of patience. A lot of tie game which is is very unusual and our profession because things generally go very quickly. And Andy mindset that you are willing to do what is necessary to help this person. And I think one of the things that though was in though the video that you were. Featured in. Talked about some traumatic brain injuries actually affect a person's ability to understand commands. Absolutely. And in the video the gentleman who. Portrayed eight a person with a traumatic brain injury is a person who had a traumatic brain injury and I got to hear his story. And you know essentially it was more on the acquired side where while he was in college. He it was it was just doing his homework in the department Monday and literally had 88 brain bleed and then an anti terrorism. And didn't remember anything until we will open a hospital and had been unconscious for first I believe it was several weeks. But I asked him that very question and I said let me just ask you any. In and thankfully for this is a wonderful young man he's not had interactions with the police but I said. You know when you're having those moments of of great difficulty. Could speed it. Difficult for you to understand just the basic command that I would I would give you as a police officer and he said you know understood and I may I may not even. Be able to it to the to make out what you're saying I I may not even be able to recognize your veteran there. Because his mind would just be going in different ways but he he would be unable to control it and obviously from our perspective. You know we'd we want compliance from that person for their safety for our safety for the safety of the people around them. And we we generally start off by just asking people to do things can you please get out of the road and I have these sit here. And if they're unwilling or or are able to do that. It. We have to to consider what what are we gonna do in next to make it has. Happen open to including you know possibly having it is to move to hands on with them which we also demonstrated in the video. My other big passion has been because I've been involved in combat as perk for quite a long time is. How can we win we get to that point. Maximize. Restraining physically a person safely and I was able to get that into the lead crisis intervention team training about. Six years ago and it is now a regular part of that. Because officers themselves they don't want to use the same kind of techniques they would use against the criminal they recognize that that this is not a criminal situation. How can we safely restrained this person. And that's another thing that we have partnered with our our Brothers and sisters in the mental health business to understand where and when you're an inpatient facilities. And that moment happens what types of techniques he has and we've been able to roll that out as well for our police. So it's not necessarily a case where it's so if if someone is told to get out of the road or sit here or something like that and they don't do it. That they're necessarily trying to be. Violent we defiant. No absolutely and aid because for us pretty much everything that has to compliance as soon as we get on the the scene and that is. Goes back to our first point in the training which is can you accept. As an officer that this what this person is doing or failing to do is a direct result of this condition. That has affected their mind and if you realize that it is well let's try a few other things let's let them. It if there aggression or their frustration seems to be. Focused in the word. And we have the ability to kind of let them work through it let's take the time let's position people properly. And see if we can't recognize this as a medical emergency and not a criminal situation. And then start to bring the appropriate people went and luckily for example wake him up here they do it very high level of training. In a crisis intervention. Team and also they have a separate kind of even more training for their advanced practice paramedics so when we have them on things without. Now we have a number of people who have been trained in. These these techniques and we can get together and and now what what can we do that to try to make this situation better and as an officer I think it's it's one of the most powerful things when you can bring other team members to play to get the best resolution. And we just have a few seconds is this. Training is just going statewide are you seeing more and more agencies in in implementing this. Since its inception in 2005. At closing on eighty counties of the 100 in North Carolina. And I think. In the numbers and thirties in the United States. Officer Michael karaoke with the Raleigh police department we appreciate you being there Carolina closed. It was my pleasure thank you. You're listening to Carolyn focused on who's talking 1110199350. PT 1079 in the win. One of 25610 W a frenzied it's also available to podcast that WT OT dot com. I'm your host mark toughness. You are listening to Carolina focus on news talk 1110993. Different. T 1079 moment. 1025610. WFANC. It's also available for podcast of the TVT dot com I'm your host mark comments are pledging to join us here once again this morning. And I guess like a lot of people we have I know a lot of different interest than him. Things that I like it I like looking at things and that's that's that's attractive. And one of those things as architecture. And it's fascinated me for years and and it didn't have to do with three in the fountain head Gurney thing like that. But. Just looking at various styles and designs. Its its amazing to me all the different creative ways that people who have used. Wood and stone and other construction materials to build some of the great architectural. Things in the world. And particularly here in the south we see a lot of that. And joining us now is. Robin Spencer Lattimore. He's and author of several books the most recent of which is southern splendor saving architectural treasures in the old south. He's also the 2009 North Carolina historian of the year. And the recipient of the order of the long leaf pine and he's also a teacher at the Thomas Jefferson classical academy over in Rutherford to an. And out would like to welcome. Mr. Lattimore to Carolina focus good morning. This morning I had a now this like I say this is something that has always intrigued me particularly because you know you see all the different creative designs that people of come up with a over the years. Working off of you know the classical. Forms initially. As far as proportions and so forth. And it is the thing I guess the thing that. Intrigues me is when I'm driving around various places in in the south. And and not just the south but anywhere. And you see an old home that isn't great disrepair or any kind of business or building or something like that that's long since been abandoned in the the kudzu was taken over in the trees are growing up through the interior and so forth. I always get this feeling that you know there was there was a day there was a moment when someone drove the last nail to the last. Rush of paint and said. It's finished its brand new and from that point. To where we are now. And there's a lot of history a lot of stories that go along with that. And your thing I guess right now is trying to preserve some of those some of that heritage particularly in the south. Mark's certainly damning one of the things you view. Certainly touchstone what's most important to me. In reality these grand homes a lot of county antebellum homes that were built before the civil war. And even our public buildings often are very command in their presents. You know because they have big doubt columns and and chimneys and and big staircase is the cost ceilings. But in reality those buildings even as they were meant to be certain places and they were meant to be imposing. They are really fragile relics of history they have been vulnerable to decay and try and fire and neglect. That the date that they were built even as they may have been at some point. I've always had in the interest in the assassination in the antebellum homes of meaning the homes built with in the four decades or the civil war. Especially. Plantation out. Except for the last twenty odd years but you know devoted a lot of time to study researching and writing about and I have to say that. I feel more and urgency today to help preserve and promote their legacy the cult. The cultural terrain of the south that's changing in our concepts and our impressions. Of the past are evolving. And sit it out today is vastly different culturally than it was just fifty years ago is certainly in my early childhood. And what got a cult not a what gotten caught up in the world and that changed are the cell antebellum hall our buildings and monuments. And because there's some of the past and that what I like to do it remind people regardless of what we've not associate with problems of the past. Houses and buildings themselves are no less landmarks with history they are imported and they should be preserved. Well it's our heritage and whether you know and and no one's heritage is perfect. A blemish free as that work. And I think unique touch on that as some people's attitudes these days towards things that are pre civil war as not being worthy of may be respected as the right word I don't know. But. It's. It's takes it takes the attitude that because that was something that happened then therefore we should not have anything to do with it now. And to me that seems a little short sided. It does and I think you know one of the things I think is important is. I think it's important to remember that for every plantation house that has survived into the modern air city yet here in the 20% today. There are dozens of others that have been wall in 1861. When slavery had reached its you know its its pinnacle in the United States. Historians say that approximately 46000. Plantations existed across the entire so now. The current estimates suggest that there's less than 6000%. About plantation houses that still serve up. And you know that's a small percentage and in reality. Those. But how does this serve Bob are very important educational tools to help. Understand collectively do we wore at the and passed. They tell a lot about the aspirations of long ago and I think if we look at it is shared history why in black and and other ethnicity living in the Americans now at that time. It is I think our our our wonderful examples. The partisanship and craftsmanship. A lot of different people including African Americans who wore. Helping construct the plantation houses not just is laborers but it artisans craftsmen. And the skilled people of color contributed to make those houses architectural masterpiece. As well as the importance of the family that lived in them now. And we're talking with Robin Spencer Lattimore here in Carolina focus about his latest book. Seven splendor saving the architectural treasures in the old south. The what you've been doing so the last 25 years trying to preserve and maintain. This heritage. This really kind of got its start in about 1853 is that correct. Yes indeed I mean that it sort preservation movement to really began in this country with a single out there that occurred. In making that victory it's an amazing story. Happened when sailing down the Potomac River one night in Virginia the south Carolinians will be aboard Cunningham. I looked out from the ship and saw George Washington's beloved Mount Vernon estate on the West Bank. In a really great state of disrepair. What she always that it it's big it's for a quarter cut it was that into the column sagging in certain areas. There were a lot of shatters that we're missing him broken windows and the front lawn was just overgrown weed them scramble. And she saw that the moonlight was playing tricks on. But she says was made aware these conversations with other passengers barrel and the captain of the ship that her observations were true. And before she got home to each call and South Carolina. She began writing letters to some upper influential and wealthy friends asking them why should we did to help preserve Washington's home. And it was her daughter and Pamela kind of campus since it got the raid of the calls and became the champion peseta Mount Vernon. And from Cunningham wore came the Mount Vernon ladies association which eventually acquired the property and began to save it for all come. And so after the success. The Mount Vernon ladies association after the civil war. A lot of groups began to look to Mount Vernon as a model. And pretty say in all over the bow their heritage groups in society lineage society's interest in interest in preserving. Houses in their neck of the woods set speak. And so all of a sudden. We have houses that were being preserved in the actions. In Charleston and Savannah. Andrew Jackson hermitage in mere natural tendency is a perfect example. And every single one of those projects look back to Mount Vernon and the success now. And I guess the the idea that Mount Vernon. I've been there aren't you probably most people who've never taken any sort of history trips have been to Mount Vernon millions and millions of people who visited. And you see the magnificent splendor. And to think that in what less than fifty years. From the death of our first president here's our home that. You would think. Simply because it's George Washington's house for heaven's sake. Is is in total disrepair and going back to the earth as I like to phrase it. You know the termites have a way of doing that. And you know here's what should have probably been and it ended up being. But one of the most revered residences. And valuable pieces of architecture and property. Total disrepair how does that happen here. And and we think of it because we think these these homes are great symbols certainly the cause when they are associated with an important historical figure. But there are also family homes Toms changed finances changed. Family Guy now. And the houses as a veteran here really become a victim of the changed society. We in addition to Mount Vernon we have to remember that Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. Once served as the count on and on and cows and have a or stored in markets island for more than 25 years before it was he. And so in this book Southern's wonder we can't focus on how does that really wore at one point on her. And there are certainly hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of oh we chose is he across the now that are really. True symbol not only the south. But also are important in but the preservation story. What line and I know you talk about you know the importance evident in their in it I guess in a certain since their all important. In some way. I know when I've gone through. Drives it to rural South Carolina for example upstate. In some of the small towns in western North Carolina you'll see some very dilapidated old homes that may not be antebellum homes. But there are also falling in disrepair and they would almost seem like you know is it is is it's something that is. Non economical. To bring some of these back. Because they're all over the place you live in Rutherford county and you know I can think of several places. Between here and there between Charlotte Rutherford county that you drive thru and you see you know it's just a little tiny town but here's this magnificent home that's fallen into. Whether they're everywhere and I'm glad you mentioned our particular area. One of the things I think is important is that in the past I mean there have been a lot of studies and a lot of books and other things commercial books scholarly books own architecture antebellum architecture or otherwise other things that the south. They areas that you mentioned kind of the back country areas the upstate of South Carolina left the house and we just have rich. Rich heritage in this area of homes. A lot of that came from agrarian well in the past a lot of attention to extol well. And added that as as. Yeah as economy's changing environments has changed his family moved away. A lot of times those those homes are abandoned and forgotten and neglected. And the sad part is is that. We've seen time and time again that preserving alms investing in homes that already exists dollar for dollar is usually. A much greater say in that building in new home. You are yeah you're helping the environment you're helping heritage and your offices. I acquiring something that often can't can't be replicated today people that follow up with older homes. Love them because they simply represents something that's really difficult to be able to acquire and that's craftsmanship. Wonderful detail a lot of wonderful architectural amenities that most people could order replicate it so why not say what authority back. And I think there's also. And from my perspective the idea of a heritage. That you're not the first person hear him you know many lives have have to pass through these doorways and lived lives in these rooms. You're not the first and hopefully you won't be the last that you it's something that can be passed down from generation to generation as well. I think that's Rodham I think that's what fascinates most people opt out intimate that it distorts sides. I'm when they see these properties is that. And when they begin to learn the story. The people that live there what happened on a day to day basis. I think. People become fascinated with that and in reality if they want to keep those stories a lot because. You know that now as I said earlier is really a society in transition. And because of that because we have so many newcomers coming and going. You know a lot of people that move in and out of the south fort for jobs or other things. This story get a wall over time and so when someone purchases and a historic home run of late that are part and bring new life into it. That either at a crucial element in helping keep it a lot for the community. And I've been amazed dozens of how I would walk happens they hope it's been restored. And just be amazed that not only what that individual property owner he would. But what the community themselves. About the fact that somebody brought you fly back into something that was pretty bad for awhile. And again we're talking with Robin Spencer Lattimore. Author of his most recent book is southern splendor saving architectural treasures of the old south. Here in Carolina focus on your host mark Thomas it's I guess a couple of directions I wanna go here we don't have a tremendous amount of time. But. What is it about the particular styles of antebellum architecture. That make it unique that make it different because I mean this these are classical architectural forms. They are indeed and I think one of the things that we most people I think don't really think about yes. The architectural forms of Greek where Kabul the temple a warm architecture. Federal architecture which was early American. Georgian Anna Holmes a lot of grit a lot of white tree and the columns. But these big Graham portico a lot porches. And the constant what is more important to us accomplish our club because of the weather. Those wide porches you know helps date the son. High ceiling allowed for a little bit more comfortable. We see most of these houses are built on a commanding ridge are on the heel on to capture the breezes and sent him. Greek revival architecture. Was absolutely perfect crock pot now in the low country areas. We seem more creole kind of influences that my country and then down into the deep deep south Sudan. That is whale is a part of what's been done. To kind of go along with the environment with the clock. And then later years we have to remember that this now look across the nation to other forms of architecture like gothic revival. And and others carpenter got it in pretty serious about it the civil war the entire region was just deal with a wealth of different architectural now. And of course some of those as you mention in your in your book. Fell immediately during the war. And I think that's one of the things about our particular area. There wasn't. There wasn't the devastation. In this particular area that there were in other parts of the south for example. Sherman's march that is to the seat eliminated Paula quite a few. A Georgia homes and plantations. And but we don't see that necessarily around here are used threatens bills an example. If Don in York county. That. Survived very well simply because it wasn't. Kind of on the on the main the main road to defeating the south. Well the good thing about it now was as you mentioned even that we certainly knows the history books all the stories that pal houses were destroyed in the war. But cost plantation houses and rural farm houses are so iso. Odd that they were confident that they were lucky and that respect and so it was very difficult for marauding troops to how this incident took up that way. Again after the war this is amazing because you know poverty in cities and and most people couldn't afford to do anything different and reality. That help preserve house as the cause. People are farmers and and hope and patient owners had naturally that you continue to live in their houses and try to maintain that the best they could. And then in an era prospering economy Acosta there it in the late nineties and early twentieth century. What a lot of other regions we're seeing brand new mentions of how does the development done. The sound really didn't get into that because they couldn't afford. And so luckily. All of these great houses many of them Serb simply because no one could afford to replace them. Now at that party is that over time age and NB inability take their houses. Really was the greatest. The tractor from our architectural heritage we certainly lost a lot because of the war. But it was the poverty and the inability to maintain how does that after the war that was the most devastating tractor. Well and you talk abouts not being able to preserve or not being able to replace. One of the things I've noticed and you know and people who know me know I'm not originally from the Charlotte area I'm one of those yankees. But my wife had gotten here so I invited my great great grandfather's from Alabama so that's a whole different fully restored for today. But one thing I've noticed is. In Charlotte in particular the idea that we need to carry that old building down and put up by shiny new thing in its place. It and that's that to meet the of people wonder who Paramus or worldly old buildings well. They're gone now because we now have the NASCAR hall of fame or we have in the Bank of America tower or what have you which is all well and good. But. As far as having. Architectural. Examples from you know the eighteenth nineteenth and early twentieth century is not here. Is what is that about him attitude. It comes from the fact that. You know America. It's the whole concept of America is wonderful but our. One of the things that we all pray if our sense of progress that is a and progress. And our our desire to build and change and embrace what it is. I mean that a lot of times in the past. We have neglected and and done away with properties. Did someone just took a moment to realize what was going to be law. But when will we talk dollars and we talk you know opportunity. That's the first thing that goes out so what I've always done to try to always share with community. Civic clubs here in society historical society is. Are underway even as something very simple I'm the way to preserve something a year community that calls. It can't be replaced and that's ever gone it'll quickly be put up. Well and I think you and you mentioned earlier about the architectural details in the workmanship soon and the craftsmanship that went into these homes. You just don't see that these days with with the make mentions. You don't err err I said it I said it okay if it. Did you and I think you're right I mean obviously. In the 21 century people have to and a lot of ways adapt to what's necessary for modern living. What's amazing is all of the technology. To live more comfortably at twentieth century can be it. The NC. The historic homes and you know one of these people that loves series is. I love seeing homes preserved as close to the original air as possible. But I also understand that yet. A historic home has been good respondents. If they architectural details are preserved. Then it took via modern living happens everyday and now he steals keeping it safe and it's still moving into the future. And that's something I think we can all appreciate it something with an all urgency. And I think it's something that might like you said at your we talked about earlier the fact that your living in. Let me. Maybe not even historical. Location but it has some heritage it has you know something has gone before. And I think there's a certain. Certain charm to. To being able live like that. I'll certainly and I think that. It's amazing people that the whole lot and they think they dropped by house's. That they with some live here. But they really don't understand how how really. You know acceptable that he would make in historic home and eat it throughout the south. And they invested that much easier than making it to a commercial it is residential Al. Well and I wanna ask you one more question here we just have a few minutes. It's one of the things that we talk about here in Carolina focus. Is gentrification. And this is going on in Charlotte now. Where older in any meaning to Estonian places like that where mill village homes older homes that weren't really valuable. Work really historic. Are being renovated and brought back to life this is kind of this is a little bit different angle but it's really part of the part of the hole is that not. It is an and one of the things particularly here in the Carolinas is we have two amazing organizations preservation North Carolina. And considerations South Carolina and what they've done it helped green attention to our mill village is too old textile mills structures to all churches. On houses bungalows. All of it happening and really what what we are now is it's about unit. Each of these things that we indeed preserve is either farmhouse in the community are wonderful bungalows residential street from the 1920. Whatever we indeed preserve that really enhances the quality of life. Put a whole community. And the reason why people choose to come to our area and that here is the call of that wonderful quality imply that you get from tree lined streets and and the simple slow lately and. Robin Spencer Lattimore. Your latest book is southern splendor saving architectural treasures of the old south. It is the University of Mississippi press that has published this. I'm sure it's available online at Amazon as is everything else on the planet. Vick will look through Amazon. We appreciate you being here on Carolina focus and next time people are out riding around looking get some of these old places. And if you look at for new place to live. Maybe. It might work. It might work. Thanks for having. Hey thanks for being on. Thanks for listening Carol focus on news talk 1110993. WTT. 1009 the week. We'll 25610 W a busy it's also available to podcast but he's got. I'm your host mark Thomas until next time well.